DriveSetup should be in Preferences tree

[haiqu]

Change 23767 moved DriveSetup from Preferences to Apps with no good reason. This is a system setup utility, and as such should not be exposed to the casual user as an application.

[anevilyak]

There was a perfectly good reason. It's not a preflet. Please stop filing tickets for every single thing that we do differently from BeOS.

[haiqu]

I didn't complain about it being different from BeOS. I made the point that it's a dangerous utility which shouldn't be in the same directory as Application, and that moving it was unnecessary, bordering on stupid. Whether it's a preflet or not is an arbitrary reason for including stuff in Preferences.

And what defines a preflet anyhow? One could also argue that since the user "prefers" to have several partitions formatted as different file systems, it's valid under Preferences.

And please refrain from making unfounded generalities about my actions.

[dustin howett]

Replying to haiqu:

Whether it's a preflet or not is an arbitrary reason for including stuff in Preferences.

That's a bizarre statement to make. It seems like being/not being a preflet would be a very good reason for including/not including something in Preferences.

[koki]

I don't know (or maybe just forgot) why DriveSetup was moved to the Applications folder, but I tend to agree with haiqu on this one.

After all, DriveSetup is the kind of app that is used very unfrequently and only for the purpose of configuring the system, so the Preferences folder definitely seems to be the natural place for it.

All FWIW & IMHO disclaimers apply. :)

[haiqu]

Here's another bizarre statement then alaricx:

In what way is DriveSetup an Application?? It's a utility program with a GUI front end. It really doesn't belong in either place.

I can just see some kid going into the family computer and saying, "Ooh, I wonder what this program does??" as he deletes the whole system a partition at a time.

Thanks for the support, koki.

[axeld]

I think with that kind of arguments you could say that Tracker changes the configuration of your files, and should therefore be in Preferences.

Changing the hard disk layout is hardly something that belongs into Preferences. As haiqu said, it's a utility, and therefore Applications is the best fit.

It's surely not an everyday application, but that doesn't make it less of an application. I for one don't like to hide apps (like the installer). Eventually we could add an extra category for system administration applications, though.

[jonas.kirilla]

FWIW, I objected this move at the time.

(Taxonomy is a difficult thing. What is a preflet. Is it a User Interface quality, like having or not having the buttons Defaults, Apply, Revert? Is it a matter or size or complexity? Is Media a preflet?)

We have only two general categories presently: Applications and Preferences. (I don´t see much value in the other two: Demos and Desktop Applets.)

Other systems have other names for the "preferences" class of binaries: Settings, Administration, Utilities, Tools. Mac OS X has a three-way split: Applications, Utilities and Preferences(?). Ubuntu has a three-way split: Applications, Preferences and Administration. (I find the latter confusing, never knowing which of Preferences and Administration to look at first.)

The Mac OS X split is the one I like the most, but IIRC, Axel (or Ingo?) did not like the name Utilities. (I see "Utilities" as simply small applications, more single-purpose in nature than real applications. GoBe Productive and Firefox would be Applications, whereas NetPenguin (ftp client) or DriveSetup would be utilities. Helpful and necessary little extras.)

IMO, the right way to decide on where DriveSetup should live is to see where it fits best, not whether it perfectly matches the semantics of the name "Preferences". IMO DriveSetup fits the semantics of "Applications" less than it fits that of "Preferences".

[koki]

The Tracker analogy makes no sense; it is a file manager that you use everyday, so it is obviously not the same. I am not arguing whether DriveSetup is a preference or not. I just think that by the nature of what it does, and the fact that it is potentially destructive, it fits more naturally somewhere other than under a general applications folder, Preferences being the only other place you can place it at the moment in Haiku. FWIW and IMHO. :)

/me wonders what the argument to move DriveSetup from where it originally was...

[umccullough]

Why have it in the menu at all?

I would say it pretty much belongs somewhere with Installer - either a "Utilities" section, or nowhere at all. Like the installer, or bootman, the user should have some guide that explains how to use DriveSetup as needed.

BTW, what about Diskprobe? If you wanna get into discussions about "potentially-lethal" tools...that one falls into a similar category, doesn't it?

We do have to consider who the target audience of Haiku is in the short term - and I think it's probably going to be developers or OS enthusiasts who know better than to screw with tools that may destroy their system.

In the long term, when Haiku's target userbase is grandma and/or children, then it's time to remove all the dangerous bits by default.

[axeld]

I disagree. It's okay to put those tools into a category that makes their use more prominent (or that most people won't use it that often), but I neither don't like hiding stuff, nor do I like removing all those "dangerous bits".

DiskProbe is not more lethal than StyledEdit or Tracker. You can use any tool that changes a file on disk to corrupt your system; of course, that will improve considerably once we have proper multi-user permissions set up by default.

Anyway, I don't think hiding is the solution; educating about the potential danger is, and separating can be helpful as well.

[stippi]

I agree that if we had a Utilities category, DiskProbe and DriveSetup would fit there better than in Applications. But the argument about destructiveness of the tool is non-sense in my opinion. Anyways, I think DriveSetup certainly doesn't belong among the other preflets! The other preflets are for configuring your personal preference about some aspects of Haiku's usability, the look and feel and so on. However, with DriveSetup you change a very fundamental aspect of your computer that affects not only Haiku, but also any other OS you may have installed (very likely).

P.S. I really don't like these hints at "stupidity" on anyones part, haiqu. They really don't help you with anything.

[koki]

Replying to stippi:

...The other preflets are for configuring your personal preference about some aspects of Haiku's usability, the look and feel and so on. However, with DriveSetup you change a very fundamental aspect of your computer that affects not only Haiku, but also any other OS you may have installed (very likely).

...and in most cases irreversibly, if I may add. It can't be more destructive than that, can it? :)

Anyway, not such a big deal; you guys have bigger fish to fry. :)

[stippi]

As Urias has already pointed out, DiskProbe also happily lives in Applications, and is just as destructive, actually much more, since the warnings are less explicit. I really don't see the point of this "destructive" argument. In another bug report, haiqu complained about there being a confirmation dialog before shutting down Haiku, but now he wants to move DriveSetup out of Applications because it's destructive as one of the reasons? I do understand the other reasons, as I said, Utilities may fit more.

[haiqu]

The "Oops!" factor of shutting down the system inadvertently can hardly be compared to wiping a hard-drive, Stippi. Anyhow, I had already considered the idea of a Utilites directory that's lockable for shared user environments, such as a school or public library, and would support that idea wholeheartedly.

This doesn't have to wait for full multi-user locking to be implemented, and anyhow that idea belongs to the day before $10.00 USB memory sticks, where everything had to be stored on a single system.